BigStack.com

Zero · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 4383

I remember when Aces had some sweet tournaments almost every night. And they were always packed...3-8 tables any given time I was there. Granted, this was PRE-SWAT Poker room busts.

But I assume those people are still alive and interested in poker, yes? And a good percentage of them are staying away from underground rooms for whatever reason.....

Why don't local rooms offer more tournaments? I understand the money to be made is in cash games. But I am not scared to go to a underground poker room...however I perfer tournaments. The fun factor is higher for me. I still play cash from time to time. But if a room doesn't offer tournaments that don't suck, there is a high probability I will never go back to that room. So the chances of me playing in their cash game have lowered from 25% to 0% chance.

Its not just NorthDallas West (as I heard someone say at the table the other day) that is probably doing this, I assume its across the board at all the rooms?

Nekosohana · Joined: 19 Dec 2005 Posts: 9776 Location: Plano, Tx

Quote: But I assume those people are still alive and interested in poker, yes? And a good percentage of them are staying away from underground rooms for whatever reason.....

SWAT doesn't even have to try anymore, the robberies and rumors of robberies are enough to keep people away.

They just need to legalize the damn game in Texas.

TommyTwoToes · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 13468

robberies only keep people away for a short time...like say 6 hours... the very people that were robbed recently where back the same day playing again...

TommyTwoToes · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 13468

zero... this is why i think that the begining of the next year would be a decent time to open a room. you cant base a room off of tournaments... but i would think that holding a good weekly tournament and a great monthly tournament would be easy to pull off.

i wish you well when you start your room... please send me an invite... :)

MushMouthMike · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject:

TommyTwoToes wrote: zero... this is why i think that the begining of the next year would be a decent time to open a room. you cant base a room off of tournaments... but i would think that holding a good weekly tournament and a great monthly tournament would be easy to pull off.

i wish you well when you start your room... please send me an invite... :)

This is what I don't understand. Anytime I have ever gone to a room for a good tournament it fills up the cash tables! These guys just don't seem to understand this. If I get all geared up to play, take a beat early and exit the tournament, I still want to play poker. Most people do. So the cash tables fill up.

Do it like those yahoos did up in Oklahoma. Tourney starts at Noon with say 8K in Chips, and if you are playing cash 1 Hour before you get 9K in Chips and 2 Hours before get 10K in Chips.

You end up with cash play before AND after tournament play

on tilt · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 5480

tournies suck for the rooms....unless the rake is huge....which discourages some players.

tournies are a means to an end...the cash game

Nekosohana · Joined: 19 Dec 2005 Posts: 9776 Location: Plano, Tx

on tilt wrote: tournies suck for the rooms....unless the rake is huge....which discourages some players.

tournies are a means to an end...the cash game

Exactly, they should be put under the discriminatory marketing budget. Even a decently structured tournament would attract players, but they all suck.

Cajun · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:58 am Post subject:

I think the other thing they don't realize is if the structure was better it would draw more people. That in turn makes a bigger prize pool and the rake can seem somewhat diminished. I don't think any room around here has enough players to ever do the sit and go style tourneys but I could be wrong. What I would prefer is games other than hold'em but again I don't think that will ever happen anytime soon.

TommyTwoToes · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 13468

Cajun wrote: I think the other thing they don't realize is if the structure was better it would draw more people. That in turn makes a bigger prize pool and the rake can seem somewhat diminished. I don't think any room around here has enough players to ever do the sit and go style tourneys but I could be wrong. What I would prefer is games other than hold'em but again I don't think that will ever happen anytime soon.

i think yall over estimate the poker intelligence of a lot of the players at these rooms...

most of these players don't understand they are getting fucked cause they have never played in a tourney that has had a great structure. so they think the 1500 in chips and 30 min doubling blinds is a great structure.when in fact its just avg. or below avg. for a room/casino.

so then you turn it into one of these speed tournies etc and they realize that hey something isnt right and that there is a large cock in their ass.

the tournaments for most rooms are just a way to bring in players until they get enough players on a regular basis to play in cash games full time... these place are in business to make money not cater to people that want to take up 4 hours of the rooms time for a low dollar (ex:$40-50) tournament... that they will likely only take $10-15 rake in.

and there are games around town other than holdem.

the rake structure at alot of rooms is as follows... please feel free to correct me if i am wrong cause well shit there is always a first time for everything...

%10 up to $5. plus +1$ for Bad Beat and +1$ for high hand(or other supposedly benefiting the player things)
then when you get pots over $500 they usually drag another $5... (and this goes on for every increment of 500... some rooms will start this at the $300 mark... and then do it again at the $500 mark...

thus they bring in alot more ... ALOT MORE... money for their time.

your argument that they will have more players play in cash games if they have better tournaments is kind of weak... i mean sure it helps them out some ... but i have seen where the tourney players all leave cause there is no cash game going yet and they dont want to wait for the other players to bust out ...i would say that out of the 30 players in a typical underground tournament 10 play in cash games ... and of those 10, 7-9 were already going to play cash games anyway.

ok so i rambled alot and liekly got away from the entire point of this thread... but i guess after thinking this through i would imagine that the tournaments are kind of like advertising that the rooms do to draw in new customers and while the customer is there the room tries to talk them into playing cash games.... and of course they take a rake on the tourney itself... so its not like they are losing money...

boohdallas · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1287 Location: NE Dallas

Zero wrote:
Why don't local rooms offer more tournaments?
Most 'local rooms' are on a 'lock down' status right now.
If you are not already a regular, you will not get in.
They are not actively seeking new 'customers'.

-N

boohdallas · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1287 Location: NE Dallas

Zero wrote:
Why don't local rooms offer more tournaments?
With a 10% rake, the take is minimal, at best.
(3hr tourney w/ $1000 total buy ins = $100 rake = $33/hr)
At 20%, most tournament players will not play.
Subtract whatever other expenses (food & drink) the room
provides from the above rate. This makes tournies rather
non cost effective.

I have seen a large number of average tourney players morph
from the 'I'll play anything' player to the 'hit & run' tourney only
player. When they get knocked out and/or get paid, they are out
the door. Many times this is due to bankroll issues. They either don't
have the $ for a cash game or want to limit their expense/exposure
to only tourney buy ins.

-N

boohdallas · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1287 Location: NE Dallas

Zero wrote: however I perfer tournaments. The fun factor is higher for me.

See sig line below.
All Weston/BigStack regulars are welcome.
We had 15 players last night.

-N

Zero · Joined: 15 May 2006 Posts: 4383

boohdallas wrote: Zero wrote: however I perfer tournaments. The fun factor is higher for me.

See sig line below.
All Weston/BigStack regulars are welcome.
We had 15 players last night.

-N

I can never play on Mondays or Wednesdays, or I'd prolly be there.

boohdallas · Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 1287 Location: NE Dallas

TommyTwoToes wrote: Cajun wrote: I think the other thing they don't realize is if the structure was better it would draw more people.

but i have seen where the tourney players all leave cause there is no cash game going yet and they dont want to wait for the other players to bust out

We have altered the blind structure on Monday nights for the above reason,
it was "too good". Most of the time, it would take 2+ hours to get to final
table (10 players). Then guys would be eliminated at a rate of maybe one
per round (each 15 min). Everyone knew it would take a while before a cash
game would start, didn't want to wait that long and leave.
We changed the blinds so we are usually down to 10 before the 2nd hour
is finished and done with the tourney in less than 3. This change was made
because it is what the players (members) wanted, not 'management'.
The cash game starts sooner now, not because the house wants to start
it sooner and rake the game. It starts sooner because that's what the
members of the club wanted AND... there is no rake.

-N

itsoverjonny · Joined: 10 Jun 2006 Posts: 1698

Tournaments are a "loss leader" for the rooms. The house may make $5-$10 per player, but those players are there for several hours taking up space, consuming dealer resources, and consuming food and beverages. If the room breaks even on the tournament rake vs. food/beverage, they are lucky.

A lot of rooms have just decided that it's just not worth the effort to have a 30-player tournament to feed a single-table cash game, when they could probably just get a single-table cash game going without the overhead of a tournament.

There is some breakpoint (I don't know where it lies) where a tournament with more players begins to DRIVE the cash games instead of just trickling a few players into a cash game that is already running. Tommy alluded to this - players have to bust out frequently enough that enough of them are around to get a second (third, etc.) table started. Most players won't wait around for more than 10 minutes for a cash game to start before they hit the door. However, the key to this is NOT a "speed" tournament that gets players busted frequently - it's a decent structure that can consistently bring in 40+ players.

The example of this "breakpoint" was the old PR - they would hold those Rounder Club tournaments that would bring in 50-100 people on a weekday night for a $35 tournament. Even with a decent structure, players busted frequently enough that they were able to start multiple cash games. Once it became a well-known fact that they pretty much always had multiple cash games running, then the cash game-only players began to gravitate to the place as well.

on tilt · Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 5480

itsoverjonny wrote: they would hold those Rounder Club tournaments .

ahh... the rounder club. i remember that. do they even exist anymore? i just ran across my membership card a couple fo weeks ago

itsoverjonny · Joined: 10 Jun 2006 Posts: 1698

on tilt wrote: itsoverjonny wrote: they would hold those Rounder Club tournaments .

ahh... the rounder club. i remember that. do they even exist anymore

Nope - everyone has gone their various ways. Don moved out to Vegas and was selling real estate last time I heard. Not sure about the other charter members. I ran into Terry at Winstar for the River, and he is doing well and only playing in Oklahoma due to work concerns. I still see/hear from some of those folks occasionally - good people.